well, at the top of the show, we asked you, why are you awake? john tower. >> something that needs to be addressed on twitter, today's tie puts you at the top of santa's naughty list immediately. melissa writes bill's tie and shirt combo is giving me a

terrible headache. back to bed. >> paisley. okay. thanks for watching. does anyone have any scissors? "morning joe" is starting right now. i made the decision that it was the best thing for our country for the american people that i not continue to be considered by the president for nomination of secretary of state because i didn't want to see a confirmation process that was very prolonged, very politicized, very distracting and very disruptive because there are so many things we need to get done as a country. >> okay. we'll talk about what really happened there. we also should tell -- who tells bill karins about paisley? donny. >> more of a blue-on-blue thing. >> more of a regis fell bin phi.

>> bill -- >> ukrainian. >> bill's weeping. >> your viewer was correct. just take it off. >> i'll take it off. >> yeah, take it off. >> you want me to take it all off? >> no, just the tie. >> what's wrong with you? >> just the tie. yeah. >> he's hiding. >> give a guy moving consecutively, that's what happens. >> good morning, it's friday, december 14th. welcome to "morning joe." with us on set, we have msnbc political analyst and vice president and executive editor of msnbc.com, richard wolffe. >> how did we get him? >> so elegant. here's the chairman of deutsche incorporated, donny deutsch. >> incorporated. >> exactly. and in washington, nbc chief foreign affairs correspondent and host of "andrea mitchell reports," andrea mitchell. she is a huge fan in jane heller. >> jane heller said she looked extraordinarily elegant last

night. >> you were remarkable last night on television. >> when andrea mitchell is involved in anything, it upgrades the elegance. >> made me feel better. >> we had to counter you somehow. >> that's why we brought her on. so under fire, rice ends her bid to succeed hillary at state. and this is the lead. president obama knew before he picked up the phone on thursday afternoon what susan rice, his ambassador to the united nations, was calling about. she wanted to take herself out of the running for secretary of state and spare him a fight. and that's exactly, mika, what she did. >> so brian williams asked her about this, and here's a little bit more of her explanation of how this happened. oh, we're standing by because -- what? you guys don't have the sound bite? okay. >> i guess so. >> so let's roll it. >> i've done sunday shows many times in the past. secretary clinton had originally been asked by most of the

networks to go on. she had had an incredibly grueling week dealing with the protests around the middle east and north africa that had enveloped our embassy. she had to deal with the loss of our four colleagues in benghazi and the state department, greet the families and the bodies, and she declined to do it. it wasn't what i had planned for that weekend originally, but i don't regret doing that, brian. i think when you're a diplomat and a public official and a tragedy happens and it is related to the work that you do, it's our obligation to try to explain it as best we can to the american people, and that's what i did. >> did you want the job? >> i would have been very honored to serve in that job, just as i'm delighted to do what i'm doing. but yes, sure. how can you not want to -- in my field -- serve at the highest possible level? >> i tell you what, hillary clinton, i'm sure she was tired.

we all get tired. she works around the clock. but you know what she was doing. >> yeah. >> hillary, that's the political experience. you see it in the corporate world, the political world, the pros that have been around the block a few times. >> decline. >> they know when to step aside. and this is -- i've seen this happen in washington time and time again. i saw it on the house level. i saw it at the white house, you know. friends that worked at the white house where the white house wants you to do them a favor. go out. and it's the eager ones that jump out front and the smart ones that slowly just go into the background, donny. she wanted to help the president. she wanted to help the white house. >> i don't think she could say no. >> yes, actually, that's what hillary knows. >> no, no, no, i was talking about susan rice. >> no, but i'm saying, though, susan rice could have said no. i'm not criticizing her because she did what the intel community told her to do.

but hillary dodged a bullet on that one. >> financial impropriety at a big bank, you rarely see the ceo or the chairman front and center. i think the good news for rice, i think her brand is stronger than ever. i loved her answer, yes, i wanted this job. you want to serve at the highest level. we all know, we've talked about this ad nauseam. all she did was deliver the information, and they shot the messenger. this is not the last we've heard of susan rice. and i think choosing the next secretary of state, it puts the republicans back on their heels. it obviously gives obama a lot of room on the offensive end to make the moves he wants. >> richard, did it bother you by how this went down? >> oh, it's disgusting, the whole thing. i know you were making another comparison, but the impropriety, she was -- she has been measured for sticking rigidly to the talking points. >> yes. >> delivered by the cia about what was a cia operation. one of the reasons people don't want to talk about this is because not only do you have an ambassador who was taking risks,

who, sadly, passed away, you had cia operatives in the middle of this. one of t no wonder the cia was all over this. you had a witch hunt not measuring a potential secretary of state on her diplomatic credentials, on her service, on whether she could serve. it's been, let's face it, part of a witch hunt that has been driven by the conservative echo chamber. it's been effective. there is a lot of personal animosity -- >> but richard, can i just -- >> i'm just saying, this has denied the president what was clearly his top pick. >> yeah. >> a president who just won re-election, and nobody has been able to say, susan rice would have been a bad secretary of state. it's come down to talking points on a sunday show. that's not a measure. >> you don't think she was maybe given a bit of disservice by hillary herself by being hung out to dry on the sunday talk shows? you don't think this was at all self-inflicted? >> self-inflicted? >> yeah. >> by the administration? i think when you have a major national security event that has

really serious questions -- i'm not saying there weren't serious questions in the middle of all of this, but you have a major national security event, you've got to talk about it on the sunday shows. >> i don't disagree with you. i'm just saying bring some balance to this. you think this was a solely disgusting takedown by the republicans, nothing else? >> i don't think anything about this has been proportionate. if you want to go and investigate the security lapses in benghazi or look at what the ambassador or his security detail were doing in benghazi, you don't go after someone for that performance on the sunday talk shows. >> mika's point is the culpability of the democrats as far as putting her forward in the first place versus hillary. >> i think, richard, you use a word that i've been thinking about a good bit as it relates to susan rice, and that's proportionality. she could be criticized. >> of course. >> for going out and blindly following talking points which i would just say were approved by the intel community. i would be far more disturbed,

and most republicans would be far more disturbed, if she was a cowboy and went out there and said a lot of things that the intel community had told her not to say. but she isn't blameless, but the proportionality is absolutely ridiculous. to judge a woman -- and you can judge her -- there's a "new york times" article saying that she is a controversial figure in washington. you can judge her for many things. you can say maybe after the 17th day on the road, maybe she would bristle a little bit more than you'd want your secretary -- we don't know. if you wanted to make that argument, you could. but to disqualify a woman on her work when she was following the talking points not of the obama white house but of the intel community, there's no proportionality. >> and by the way, if you're john mccain and you're hawkish about intervention on foreign policy, you want a susan rice, not a john kerry. you may feel like john kerry's

my friend and who knows if i'm going to get access to susan rice, but john kerry is not your interventionist like susan rice is. >> no. >> if you want to harm rebels in libya or syria, susan rice. >> since you've been covering this so closely, take us through the evolution because president obama and the white house were so defiant. and remember that one press conference where he came out very sternly talking about how much he admired ambassador rice. how did we get to yesterday? was this all from susan rice, or was there a little nudge from the white house as well? >> well, it's unclear as to whether there was a nudge, but certainly she was reading the tea leaves. and it was pretty clear for the last two weeks that the president was not as forceful as he was on that day, november 14th. when john mccain had said very bluntly on the hill, she is not going to get confirmed, and the president then had his first news conference after being re-elected and just came out so strongly, dramatically and emphatically, he was angry, and they're still angry in the white

house about the way mccain and company, they think ganged up on her. i was also told that he might not have stuck with her as long as he did but for mccain. he did not want to appear to be backing down in the face of a challenge from john mccain. this was a really messy episode. whether or not she was the best nominee, i mean, joe, your point is exactly right, i think. that the benghazi issue, first of all, was not front and center. it's not her portfolio. so she was put out as the highest ranking diplomat to speak that sunday. and i think it was a job audition. i think they welcomed the opportunity to have her go out on five shows and, you know, show her stuff. and she stuck to those talking points. i was in the green room that day because i was on the same show, and we were listening and watching. and it did seem immediately to those of us watching that it was not adequately conveying the full complexity but, you know, you understand when someone is going out nervously and sticking

to those intelligence points. she would have been criticized more if she hadn't. as you said. >> again, listen. her argument wasn't credible. i understand why republicans were upset with that performance. four days, five days after we found out from general petraeus. they knew that al qaeda was involved. it was a terror attack. but let's just strip this down, richard, and talk about what it was really about. politics. >> yeah. >> they were upset. and you could -- you take it to the debate. and candy crowley getting it wrong on what the president said and what he said it. the white house was trying to say, in the middle of a campaign, we've got al qaeda on the run. this wasn't terrorism. and they were juggling and trying to have it both ways. hey, did the bush administration ever play politics with intel? >> in 2004? >> it's a rhetorical question. >> i'm sorry. >> calm down. can we get the oxygen out? because when richard wolffe is

taking everything literally, we're in trouble. but i will say, what about colin powell? let's say it again. i've got deep, abiding respect for colin powell. >> absolutely. >> i do. he is my type of republican on foreign affairs. he's a realist. he urges restraint. he, more than anybody else, over the past quarter century, delivered a speech in the most critical of moments in american history and botched it every way he could. we went to war in part because of what he said at the united nations that day. and not one republican stood up and said, colin powell is unfit to be secretary of state. >> and what colin powell would say today is that you should have seen the stuff that he took out of his speech that people in the cia and the broader intelligence community wanted him to say. so there are always defenses. when you are the front person and you have to deliver that, for him, that's still the

blemish on his career. >> there are countless republicans, by the way, that have gone on sunday talk shows and blatantly screwed up or said things that didn't work out the right way. that's not even the issue. andrea, on something you said earlier, was susan rice the most appropriate person to be talking about benghazi? i'm just wondering. >> it was not even on her -- she's not responsible for this, and i think you're going to see next week, when hillary clinton is at least now scheduled to appear before the senate and the house, to explain the benghazi investigation, that independent vesks led by mike mullen, i think you'll see the focus revert to the state department which is going to have to answer some tough questions about why there wasn't better security. part of this goes to the point that it was a cia annex apart from the mission. that second building was a cia outpost, and they most likely didn't want to draw a lot of attention locally among the militias putt-putting huge amounts of security there. one other point. there is some blowback from

this. the white house seems to think that because the republicans took down a woman and a woman of color that this will, you know, continue the narrative during the election campaign and hurt them in their attempts to reach out and rebrand. but i think there's another effect. i even ran into some very high-ranking women from the obama administration at the cabinet level last night. and people are upset. and this was family. susan rice was one of those loyalists. she had worked during the campaign. and the women in this administration, at least some of them, are very upset that he didn't fight harder for her and that some of the republicans might feel that he can be rolled now because he showed weakness in withdrawing the nomination before it was even made. >> go ahead. >> i was just going to say, president obama, i actually spoke about this last night, said rice would remain a close member of his cabinet. we don't know what yet. maybe something on national security adviser that doesn't require senate confirmation. here's the president. >> susan's going to continue to

be an outstanding u.s. ambassador to the united nations. i hadn't made a decision about who would be my next secretary of state. there's no doubt that susan was qualified. there are other people who are qualified as well. her interest is in serving me but most importantly serving the country. and she's done an outstanding job. i could not be prouder with her. she will continue to be one of the top members of my national security team. >> we talked about the next choice. it's interesting to watch the dominos fall. a lot of people saying john kerry now is the choice. all these same senate republicans who were challenging susan rice said john kerry will breeze through. it will be an easy confirmation. then that opens up a senate seat in massachusetts. could scott brown come back? this opens up a whole new series of conversations. >> to andrea's last point, you kind of wonder if it's only six weeks after a very, very resounding win in the election and obama was not pounding his fist standing strong, you wonder what the next four years will be. >> he was angry. >> he could wen a fight and not have to back down and say this

is a moral imperative on my end, it's strange. >> the white house was terrible defending nominees the first time around. here you had someone who wasn't yet a nominee. they had no defense -- there are a lot of people around susan rice who are very unhappy that there was no concerted communications effort to push back against this until very, very late last week. number one. and by the way, sources tell me there's no wink and a nod about anything. i know there's a lot of speculation, well, rice will get something else, that's not how this played out. she took herself out. there was no hint that there's going to be another job down the road. i'm sure there probably will be. she can continue in her current job, but there's not a promise she'll be national security adviser. tom donelan who has that job right now has a good, strong hold on that job. >> andrea? >> they do have to figure out, this team -- i think chuck hagel is going to be nominated for defense secretary. so now you've got john kerry and chuck hagel. there's going to be a woman there somewhere. maybe it's treasury, maybe it's

janet napolitano moving over to attorney general. but among those four top cap net po cabinet posts, you've got to have more women, more diversity to meet the commitment that this president has made and that he wants to make. i think there were people -- there were advisers very close to the white house telling the president, this was not a fight with republicans that he could have won it. but this is not a fight he needed right now when he's got to focus on working with them to come up with agreements, obvious agreements, on budget, taxes and cuts. >> andrea, what can you tell us about the dynamic between hillary clinton and susan rice? because we'll be reading about this in the future at some point. >> sure. >> there's no doubt, first of all, hillary stepped aside, let susan rice go out, get blindsided. and then she sat on the sidelines and said nothing in her defense. the silence was deafening. was this payback for 2008? what was it? >> i actually don't think so. hillary clinton does not do

sunday talk shows. i can't recall the last one she did. if you want an interview with hillary clinton, it's either "barbara walters 10 most fascinating people" or on the road. but she does not do that round. yes, i think it was very smart politically not to go out that weekend. >> smart politically, but we lost an ambassador and three other people. and i was surprised to see susan rice sitting there, i've got to tell you. >> it was not the most logical choice at all. but i think that she did it willingly because she wanted to, as i say, it was a job audition to see how she would do because she knew she was the front-runner. she was his first choice at that point for secretary of state. i think that dynamic is complicated. they have worked very well together. susan rice will tell you that she had plenty of defense from hillary clinton both privately and publicly. i can recall four or five occasions because she was on the road so much, a lot of what she said was overseas so you didn't see it here, but she was saying it anytime she was asked, praising susan rice.

you know, there's never going to be that close personal connection between samantha powers and susan rice who were with obama in '08 and hillary clinton, the person who ran against him. this is a team of rivals which has come together at the top between hillary clinton and the president. but the people in the national security team and a lot of those others who worked in that campaign are not that close with clinton. >> and susan rice will remember and probably can tell you how many days, hours and minutes it was, before hillary clinton would come out and actually offer a word of defense. i think the scars of 2008 are still there. why else would you -- >> something else. >> -- let somebody twist in the wind like that? >> how long did it take for john kerry to say anything? >> well, i mean, that's obvious. come on, that's obvious. >> it's ironic, too, you know. >> what's that? >> it is irony, too. >> that's not irony. that's pretty basic, straightforward, i want the job of secretary of state. >> now he feels for her.

>> does he? he's shocked and stunned and deeply saddened. >> it's painful for everyone. >> it is painful. >> all right. we have a lot of other news to cover. coming up, former deputy campaign manager for the obama campaign, stephanie cutter. new orleans mayor mitch landrieu. "the washington post's" eugene robinson. also "fortune" magazine dubbed her the new queen of wall street. we're going to talk to alexander lebenthal on how she quickly became one of the most powerful people in new york. up next, though, one of the most powerful men in washington, mike allen with the top stories in the "politico playbook." but first -- >> oh, no, dude! it's about contrast, okay? if you're going with a dark -- no. >> no? >> the funeral director look? that's not what you wanted? >> i think you've gone from ukrainian to bulgarian. >> bill, i get the feeling on your time off you wear hawaiian shirts and shorts and

flip-flops. >> that's usually more than what i wear. yeah. that's good. >> here we go again. he can't help himself. give this guy more than three consecutive minutes on the air, suddenly he's hef. >> all right. let's just get the forecast for the weekend. shall we? >> let's do that, why don't we. new tie. good morning, everyone. we have sunshine out there this morning. it's going to be a beautiful afternoon. just like yesterday throughout the east from new england all the way down through the mid-atlantic. and as we continue to watch the forecast progress, a heads up to new england and throughout the south. saturday is the better day. sunday we'll have a chance of more rain, possibly snow mixed in with northern new england. sunday afternoon especially, a little more gloomy. saturday looks really nice. the storm that we're going to be tracking this weekend currently raining. it actually poured in the deserts last night through arizona and heading into new mexico. then as we go through friday afternoon, maybe a shower or storm. dallas, san antonio to houston. west coast also a little damp. then the weekend forecast, as i mentioned, east coast, you look

really nice on saturday. it's sunday that that storm that's up there for chicago and minneapolis saturday, that heads through the great lakes and then goes to the east coast. overall, though, doesn't look like any big snowstorms. even that storm i was talking about for tuesday on the east coast next week, just a big rain and windmaker for new england. it's tough to get snow this time of year. ski resorts are hurting. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. honey... ya? you notice something different about these toys? the prices are so low. are we dreaming? i got an idea. kick me in the shin. if i feel it, we know the prices are real. yep, they're real. we've got more rollbacks on toys all december.

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all right. 25 past the hour. time now to take a look at the "morning papers." we'll start with the "usa today." nonvoters have some ideas on how to make voting easier. the top suggestion, according to a new poll, 28% of nonvoters say being able to cast their ballots online would make them more willing to participate in the electoral process. during this year's presidential election, turnout dropped to an estimated 57.5% of eligible u.s.

citizens. >> "the new york times," co-inventor of the modern bar code died on sunday at the age of 91. woodland who patented the technology almost 60 years ago developed the idea as a student at drexel university after the head of a local grocery store asked the engineering department for help advancing the checkout process. >> from our "parade of papers," "the los angeles times." sales of chewing tobacco and other smokeless products have risen sharply in california while usage among high school students jumped 3.9% in 2010. nationwide the tobacco industry spent over $440 million to market and advertise their products. >> any chewing tobacco folks on the show? i've never seen any spittoons on set. >> "boston globe," steven spielberg's "lincoln" grabbed seven golden globe nominations including best picture, best director, best actor.

ben affleck's "argo" earned five nominations while silver lining playbook and zero dark thirty scored four apiece. "game change" honored with five nominations including best tv mini-series or motion picture. congratulations to halperin and heilmann. the seventh annual golden globe awards televised january 13th. bradley cooper was nominated as well, his actor and film and jennifer lawrence. >> "the chicago tribune," the now bankrupt maker of twink iet hostess, is being courted by several companies including walmart and kroger. the 82-year-old business holds about $900 million of secured debt and up to $150 million of administrative claims. representatives from walmart and kroger have declined to comment on the report. >> and in this week aenenweeken "parade," "jeopardy!" champ ken jennings digs into parental folklore with an exclusive

excerpt from his new book, "because i said so." >> it's a must-read. >> i like the cover, why every kid should read. >> mike allen has a look at the "playbook." hello, mike. >> happy friday, willie. >> let's talk immigration because the president has said this is next on deck once we get through this fiscal cliff question and the debt ceiling. will be the next big undertaking for congress sometime in 2013. how does it shake out? >> yeah, well, "politico" has learned that the president plans to really step on the gas on this. you know, the other day tom friedman was saying that we have to change our mindset about new administrations. it's not the first 100 days when you look at the agenda. you only have 100 days to get something real done in the current environment. and so the president is very much taking this approach. you know, we've been told that as soon as they get past the cliff talks, immigration was going to be what they're doing next. we're told now that the

president hopes to pass it by june. that within six months, the administration would hope to pass a comprehensive immigration plan. so senator chuck schumer of new york is part of a gang of eight. washington and the senate love their gangs. that's working on immigration. early in the year they'll have principles. by march they'll have immigration. so already, we're told, the white house is starting to reach out to the hispanic groups that were very helpful to it during the election campaign. also are going to work with business groups. business wants much of the same immigration agenda that the administration does, try and put together a coalition. and as we talked there on set the other day, republicans, more than ever before, are willing to talk with the president about it, even work with him about it. they know they have to do something about this, too. >> and mike, what would it look like -- and this is a very detailed conversation that will require a lot more time than we have right now -- but what would a good immigration reform

package look like to the president? >> yeah, it's not complicated. there's two basic choices. one is the president's approach, what people in washington have called the big enchilada, the big bill, a grand slam which would not only include a guest worker program but would have some formal way for people who are now in the country illegally to get on a path to being here legally. also would take in the dream act, young people who were born here, fix their status. the republican approach is to go more piecemeal, to do parts of it that they think that they can get passage on rather than taking the risk of a huge bill like with health care. the republicans will draw the health care analogy and say, you would have had us for lots of parts of it. it wound up being much more partisan by being a bill bill. that will be the fight of how to go. democrats, we're told, are going to be very tough on republicans and say if you really care about

this issue, if you really have hispanics' backs, if you really want to get well on this issue, you need to go for the big bill. we're not going to let you get away with just doing these little pieces. >> and andrea, republicans don't want to roll over completely for the president, but given the spread we saw in the election among latino voters, this is also something they don't want to be seen now as standing in the way of. >> absolutely. and you know, the moment is so ripe for them to join the president and come up with a big approach. because doing it piece by piece is not going to get any of them the kind of political leverage and the legacy advantage that certainly the white house is seeking. this is the moment, but it will take the kind of political skill that they lacked -- the white house lacked -- in trying to push for health care initially. they have to reach out and be much more creative as they try to build this coalition. >> and mike, as you say, this is something business leaders want, too. there's a big economic question there. mike allen with a look at the

"playbook." mike, thanks so much. >> happy weekend. >> we'll see you. coming up, with an afc wild card spot in their sights, the cincinnati bengals' defense trying to come up big against the eagles. also big baseball news. the los angeles angels' lineup just got a little more scary. josh hamilton now joining albert pujols and mike trout. >> if i'm josh hamilton, i'm thinking what city would be best for me to lay low, go through my rehab, ongoing rehab battles, had problems last year. you know what i'm thinking? >> stay out of the media spotlight. >> stay out of the media spotlight. there's not a lot of flash, not a lot of coke, not a lot of smack, not a lot of crazy living, i'm thinking l.a. i'm going to l.a. >> right to hollywood. >> right to hollywood, yeah. >> sports is next. >> wow. of washington about the future of medicare and social security.

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time for some sports. the eagles' dismal season continued last night against the bengals. in the first quarter, mat mcbriar trying to get a punt off, but it's blocked by his own teammate who was pushed back into the punter. the bengals recover just outside the 10 yard line. oh, no. >> come on. >> that rivals sanchez. >> the butt fumble? >> the butt fumble.

martin mcnutt pushed back. bengals down three in the third quarter as we jump ahead. andy dalton makes a move, 11-yard touchdown gives the bengals the lead. end of the third, bryce brown takes the handoff, simply leveled by pat sims. wallace gilberry. bengals scored 24 unanswered in the second half. they win 34-13. they're now 8-6. cincinnati holding down the last wild card spot in the afc. and the misery in philadelphia continues. baseball now, josh hamilton finally got the big contract he was looking for -- >> by the way, chateau marmont, the suite, not going to be available for the next couple years, i'm told. i just checked. >> booked up? >> yep. >> five years. >> why could it be booked up? who is going to rent out the suite for five years? >> let's see, the los angeles angels reportedly have signed josh hamilton to a five-year deal worth 125 million bucks. >> he's going to l.a. that explains a lot. >> second highest salary in the

big leagues behind only a-rod. a-rod has the highest salary in major league baseball. >> that's worked out well. >> they've confirmed that news, hamilton leaving texas but said hamilton did not give the rangers a chance to match the angels' offer before he took the deal. one former angel upset, his former club didn't pull out the checkbook for him, torii hunter now with the detroit tigers tweeted yesterday, "i was told money was tight, but i guess arte had money hidden under a mattress. business is business, but don't lie." that's torii hunter, the former angel, complaining he thought he should have been. so hamilton joins pujols and mike trout in l.a. they missed the playoffs last year. we'll see if they make this year. >> do you think they have something? the countert in the contract? >> he's all good now. >> i thought he had an episode last year. >> we all have our episodes. >> that's a bad sign. his body is a lot older than his years. bad sign. >> well, and he phoned it in

during the playoffs last year, and he had an episode last year, if i remember correctly. >> yeah. he had a lapse. >> yeah. >> but he's been -- >> it was at arlington. great game at the garden last night if you're a knicks fan. >> yeah, i was there. >> carmelo anthony, donny was there, unstoppable in the first quarter. 'melo had 22 points in the first quarter, five fewer than the entire lakers team. third quarter, anthony driving to the hoop, lands awkwardly on his ankle, he left the game, did not return, sprained left ankle. before he left, 30 points. knicks hold on to the lead. felteden to chandler for the knicks. knicks win, 117-107. knicks now 9-0 at home. no word yet on whether or not carmelo will play the knicks game on saturday. donny, the knicks are for real. >> they are, 17-5, and they booed d'antoni. it was actually uncomfortable. >> they should have cheered the

defense. >> the garden was alive. this is a team that's for real, no question. coming up, former obama campaign deputy manager, stephanie cutter joining us right here on set in new york. but first, "mika's must-read opinion pages." you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. ♪

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the last guy pitched more ball packers. but you... you consulted ups. you found a better way. that's logistics. that's margin. find out what else ups knows. i'll do that. you're on a roll. that's funny. i wasn't being funny, bob. i know. santa's lap or a flu shot? oh, let's see the full photograph. flu shot. right? next up. all right. we have some mixed answers here. let's see. >> santa. >> santa's lap. all right. we have -- everyone seems certain that that's a flu shot. all right. let's have a look.

yeah, that is a flu shot. all right. there's the face. there's the expression. and we say flu shot? all right. let's take a look. it is a -- oh, santa. >> welcome back to "morning joe." a beautiful shot of capitol hill. look at that. >> wow! >> red sky at morning. look at that. it's just gorgeous. gorgeous shot. it's a shame t.j. can't be here to see that, willie. you know, he always seems to get the shaky helicopter shots. and every time we have -- >> i'm here. i'm here. >> so wexler's running it from another room. i went from seeing that beautiful shot to your bald head. could we go back to the beautiful shot? >> there you go. >> that's gorgeous. >> just leave that up all morning. like the yule log. >> it's going to be the yule log. let's keep that up during the introduction "must-reads." "wall street journal's" peggy

noonan, "republicans need to talk." now it's just dissolved slowly into peggy's column. could we have some music? no, that doesn't work. no, let's try that again. i want to dissolve. you don't have to set the stage here, t.j., because i've told everybody. you don't have to show -- here we go. if we could have a little mood music, too. peggy noonan in "the wall street journal," "republicans need to talk." >> cinematic. >> no timing. it's fast. always too quick. yeah. so now it's time for today's "must-read op-ed." and let's go to "the wall street journal" and peggy noonan. >> another dissolve. ah. >> that was nice. that was nice. >> great. >> that was. right now, everyone's open to the idea of change. the party can either go the way of the whigs or they can straighten up and fly right, get serious and make their

philosophy feel new again and pick candidates who can win. but party leaders should -- come on, guys. i'm reading a serious column here, don't laugh. everything moves faster now. there's no particular need to let positions evolve because they've already been quietly evolving for years. though people didn't always feel free to say so. okay, that's good. thank you. here's the money line, willie. >> here it is. >> here's the money line. for the past ten years, the party has operated under an ethic of questioning the team is disloyal, dissent is disloyal, as is criticism. there has been a recipe not for peace but for disaster, which is what we saw on november the 6th. now, if we can dissolve back to the capitol. look at that. he was ahead of me. >> joe, i know i'm just a guest. have you ever tried to track under the conversation? you guys, can you kind of roll the music as we're talking? >> like we do during sports?

>> so people there's a piano player off to the left. give it a little loungy feel, yeah. >> so richard wolffe -- thank you for that, donny -- this is what i've experienced for the past ten years. i love my party. i don't think they've been conservative enough when it comes to spending over the past ten years. i've been critical of that and foreign policy, critical of a lot of areas saying they're not conservative enough, actually, and i've still been killed, right? peggy's line here, for the past ten years, the party's operated under an ethic of questioning the team is disloyal, dissent is disloyal, as is criticism. this has been a recipe not for peace but for disaster. i could pick seven different times since september where i said we're in trouble, guys. we're in trouble. hey, guys. i started in early september. i said the convention was bad. having clint eastwood talking in primetime while the democrats were killing us. and every time you stated that everybody knew outside the washington political class, you got killed. you got killed on talk radio.

any conservative did. you get killed on the blogs. you get killed even in some mainline publications which is really distressing to me, not because of me, i don't care because i knew i was right and i knew they were wrong, distressing because, you know, the conservative sort of thought, you know, institutions were just blindly lining up behind a guy who had a terribly flawed campaign. and that's been our problem for ten years. >> yeah, look. the litmus test things, the worry about the primaries, it's understandable in some ways, but you've got to be more inclusive. when you think about how rahm emanuel and nancy pelosi built up that big democratic majority 2006 on, you're looking at a bigger group of people, more centrists, more conservative democrats coming into the fold. that's how you run these regional races, where you have to have candidates who have a different line, whether it's gun control or tax cuts or abortion rights. i mean, the democrats had to

open it up to get a bigger, stronger coalition together, and that's how they could get some things done. >> and that's what the republicans need to do because donny, you know, as far as marketing goes, what works in northwest florida for me does not work, as i've said a billion times, in the suburbs of philadelphia. >> right. >> in parts of the i-4 corridor, in all the swing areas that republicans now are losing. >> let's go back to -- let's rewind the clock and you're playing to south carolina and you've got a primary, and 20% of the base of the fringe votes. so how do you play that game, though? >> listen, you're a strong conservative. that's the thing. you stand up to the freaks on the far right. >> and you say okay, i'm pro-choice -- >> no, no listen. no. but i'm not pro-choice. >> okay. >> right? and a lot of times, it's not about these social issues. it's about extremists coming in and saying, you know, that barack obama is a marxist when swing voters know, he's not a

marxist. they may disagree with him thinking the federal government should be involved, but somebody goes out and says oh, he's a communist, a marxist, a racist, he's this, he's that. >> what's your response? >> you say, i've got great respect for the president. >> okay. >> all the things i've said here every day, i like him as a man. he's a great father. he's a great husband. i just disagree with him on policy. >> pro-choice? >> i think he's wrong. what? >> pro-choice? >> no, i'm not pro-choice. >> that's where you then get into trouble. >> no, no. donny, no, it doesn't. you need to stop going to manhattan cocktail parties. chris christie's pro-choice, and he's got a 72% approval rating in new jersey. you can be pro-choice and still win. just like you can be a democrat and be pro-life and still win if you know how to reach out to your people. >> on a national stage. >> let me tell you something. the chattering class is obsessed over social issues. but, you know, i will say this. this is one thing that george w.

bush got, richard. he understood, he could be pro-life, he could be against gay marriage, but it was important for him, he started his campaign -- i remember back in 2000, it confused a lot of people, he went from one minority neighborhood to another minority neighborhood to another, and it wasn't because he thought he was going to get minority votes. it was because he was sending a message to suburban white women, saying i'm not a hater. i want to reach out to all americans. and that has been so absent from this party. >> hard to remember, but his first piece of domestic legislation, maybe his biggest, ted kennedy, education reform. >> education reform. and again, i didn't like it, but you know what? a lot of swing voters said, okay, here's a guy who barely won an election, but he reached out to ted kennedy, a liberal lion, and passed this. republicans have lost the ability to do that. >> the next primary will be interesting to watch, given the way mitt romney tried to swing right and then come back unsuccessfully. it will be interesting to see if

a presidential candidate in the republican party does what you're saying. >> yeah, why not? >> they have to. >> and i was in the district that jerry falwell called the most conservative in america. every time i went up against people on the far right who said irresponsible things, i may have lost one or two voters on the far right. i picked up five or six in the middle. no democrat ever challenged me, the district that had never voted for a republican until i got elected. it's because of all the independents voted for me. all the conservative independents voted for me. that ain't happening on the national level for a lot of republicans because it's more of a tone thing, donny. >> complete tone thing. and basically, people want inclusiveness, and they have to get it. they have to get it. >> i hope so. still ahead, "the washington post's" eugene robinson, bloomberg's margaret carlson. keep it on "morning joe." we're at walmart with the simmons family.

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we went out on the street today to ask them about the so-called fiscal cliff. >> are you worried about the fiscal cliff? >> it could make a difference in life. i mean, it all depends on how you look at it. >> are you worried about the fiscal cliff? >> yeah, kind of. >> what exactly is the fiscal cliff? >> it's a raise in taxes. yeah. now i look like a fool. i don't know. >> do you know what it is? >> no, i really don't. we go off the cliff. >> something to do financially.

um, yeah. that's all about i can tell you. >> why are you worried? >> because you have a worried look on your face. i think i should be worried. >> it's not good. i know that. so, yeah. >> we're going to give him half credit for that one. >> not good. >> not good at all. >> not good at all. welcome back to "morning joe." richard wolffe and donny deutsch are still with us. joining the table, former deputy campaign manager for president obama, stephanie cutter. and in washington, nbc news chief white house correspondent and political director and host of "the daily rundown," chuck todd. good to have you on. >> stephanie, you've recovered. how do you feel? >> you look rested. >> i'm totally recovered. >> totally recovered. >> it's only a month ago, but it feels like years ago, doesn't it? it could have been yesterday, it could have been ten years ago, but i feel great. >> how do you think david looks without his mustache? >> he still looks like david. >> without a mustache.

>> i think it's an improvement. >> i think he looks a lot younger. >> yeah. >> a little less like surviving members of the village people. i think it's really good all around, stephanie. so stephanie, i want to follow up on something i read -- i forget where it was -- but you said you were surprised that the romney people didn't push back more on the beain capital attacks. you're not alone. that was the centerpiece of your campaign. he basically said, i've got gis experien business experience. i can fix the economy. you guys undermined that. have you talked to anybody on the other side, why didn't you guys push back a little bit more? >> you know, we've talked and, you know, i certainly respect a lot of people on that campaign. >> yes, of course. >> i still don't understand, you know, he ran for senate in 1994 against kennedy. bain was an issue. 2002, bain was not as much of an issue, but he made a pretty big declaration there that he had

left the firm in '99 to go to the olympics. so he was setting down a mile marker. he ran in '08. the economy tanked. he was planning to run in 2012. his sole credential was his experience at bain. he understood the economy, he knew how to fix the economy, but they never figured out how to tell that story. you know, the attacks came, telling what we would call the real story behind bain, was never countered. in any way. >> what would be the counter? if you're playing for the other side, what's your eideal counte? >> exactly. there were probably hundreds of deals that mitt romney was involved in. and you know, it's a presidential campaign, so your opponent picks out just a half dozen. >> give me your counter. right now, you're reporting on tv. >> that's kind of awkward. >> it's easy. let me try -- >> okay. >> he did it during the first debate when he did so well. and i think it was his best moment of the campaign where he goes, i've been in business for 30 years. i have no idea what you're talking about. everybody laughed. made the president look like he

was totally clueless on business. listen. they're accusing me, not you guys, but burton saying if somebody's accusing me of killing their wife, then i've got no problem being condescending and going, hey, listen, i understand, you have absolutely no idea how to create a job. you've never paced your office in your small business at 10:00 at night on a friday night trying to figure out how you keep the doors open on the weekend. i understand you want to raise taxes because you don't have a clue. >> he never paced an office in a small business. that's the problem. listen. let me finish. it's always going to be framed as him being a big business wall street guy. it has nothing to do with good dea deals/bad deals. >> here's the perfect example of how romney didn't get his message across. the one thing that shocked me during this campaign was every time i talked to democrats that knew romney on wall street, behind closed doors, they'd go, he was incredible. what he did at bain was revolutionary.

he changed the way we did business. i've never seen a guy put together deals like him. i was flying with a woman that worked in the business that said, listen, i would never vote for him in a million years. i have never seen a man in 20 years on wall street pick winners like mitt romney picked winners. it was bizarre. he had this sixth sense. >> that's not appealing to a voter, deals and picks winners. >> donny, he knows how to fix things, okay? this was a message. >> they just conceded the argument, i agree with you that it was a very good argument for us that he's part of the problem and not part of the solution. look what people like him did to our customer a few years ago and we're still digging out from it. there was a way for them to at least lessen the blow. for every deal we pointed out, there were probably 20 other deals. they turned that company around and now it's profitable and boosting communities. and there are examples of that. and, you know, he should have just been up front about it. >> you're still an investment guy, not a builder. there's a difference.

>> they just backed off bain altogether, but it was a core piece of his biography. you couldn't back off. they tried to touch it at the convention. and had they given that more lift, the guys that were telling the story, you know, they could have made an indent, i think. >> all right. chuck todd, i'm going to give you a choice. susan rice or fiscal cliff? >> you pick. what have you guys been enjoying? >> i think the major shake-up in the administration has been the talk of the morning. susan rice made her case with brian williams last night as to why she ended up on "meet the press" doing those talking points that seemed to have touched off a firestorm that ultimately ended her nomination. she backed out. here she is talking to brian williams. >> i withdrew my name because i think it's the right thing for the country, and i think it's the right thing for the president. and putting those things together, that makes it the right thing for me and my family. i've, all my life, been a public servant. i'm not a political person at my foundation. i just want to, as i've had in

academia and think tanks and two temples in this administration of this government tried to do the right thing, and that's what i'm going to continue doing. >> did you want the job? >> i would have been very honored to serve in that job, just as i'm delighted to do what i'm doing. but yes, sure. how can you not want to -- in my field -- serve at the highest possible level? >> chuck todd, she -- you just heard her say she really wanted the job. what do you think happened? >> oh, i think she -- i think she and i think some of her friends told her, this is going to be hard. that it wasn't clear-cut. the president was leaning her way. i'm not saying he was leaning against, but i think that one thing that i would caution folks on, i don't think this was a -- there's been this assumption that this was a done deal, that the president's first choice was susan rice. i do not get the sense that that -- there was certainly a contingent of susan rice supporters. inside the white house. i think that there is a lot about susan rice philosophically

when it comes to her toughness and where she's -- where her passions lie in diplomacy. she's, in many ways, a little more of an interventionist than john kerry. i mean, the irony of all this when it comes to the folks that were the most critical of susan rice in the republican party in the senate, in particular john mccain and lindsey graham, if you look at the records of susan rice versus john kerry, you would assume that ideologically susan rice, a little bit closer to a mccain or a graham, a little more of an interventionist, if you will. think about where she was on libya. where john kerry, much more cautious, as many veterans are when it comes to military conflicts, when it comes to u.s. intervention. so i think that, you know, the president certainly was getting advice saying, this is going to be a tough lift. you can get her confirmed. but just keep that in mind. you've got a lot of issues to go through, congress. and if you don't think she is

the best person over and above everybody else, ask yourself whether you want that kind of fight or not. so look, i think that susan rice handled this very well. and now his position -- the next big opening is hers. >> you're our political director, chuck. what does this do to the republican party? who got absolutely skewered in the last campaign, especially among voters who were women of color. what does this do? john mccain, lindsey graham, kelly ayotte picking this fight with susan rice for basically following the talking points the intel community gave her? >> well, i do think there are going to be some hardcore supporters of susan rice who believe that this was done unfairly. that she was a victim of this. that she was a victim of a feeding frenzy of a group of folks, whether it was on talk

radio, whether it was on other conservative outlets who were attempting to make her the story, make her the issue instead of going where it should have been, which is there clearly was some sort of intelligence breakdown. a problem in the intelligence community. a problem in the intelligence community that we thought we were trying to solve post-9/11. that was the issue here. she was just -- got turned into a punching bag. did it go over the top? and i think that there might be some introspection there. i don't think there's any long-term hits on that front. i do think what's interesting for the president is the three big jobs now openings, treasury, defense and state. the front-runners are all white men. john kerry at state, chuck hagel at defense, jack lew at treasury. i've talked to senior officials who said he is going to have a cabinet that is both highly qualified and that looks like america.

>> i mean, that looks like parts of america. >> it certainly looks like parts of america. >> like republican parts of america. >> i wouldn't be surprised if you see them saying, are there some women candidates that we didn't vet as closely maybe for defense, michelle florinoy, if she gets a second look. brainerd who's got geithner's old job at treasury, if she gets a second look, laura tyson, somebody from the clinton years. >> stephanie, you have done these confirmation battles before. you're not part of the administration now. >> that's right. >> but two questions for you. one, could the, should the white house have mounted a more vigorous defense or any kind of defense of susan rice beyond what the president said at the start of that cabinet meeting? and secondly, haven't they opened themselves up to the next battle? because republicans have got some blood in the water here. they can go after the next nominee, right?

>> no. well, i think in terms of the defense of susan rice, let's not forget how all of this happened. it started in the heat of a presidential campaign. she was clearly being used as a scapegoat to get at the president. and the president made it clear that he wasn't going to let that happen. but i think that susan saw the writing on the wall and didn't want to make this about her. and there were too many things that we have to get done. she did the right thing. and the incredibly honorable thing. are we all mad about it? absolutely. you know, she's amongst the most talented people that we have in this government. and we can't afford to lose her. in terms of the next battle, i think, actually, they've weakened their hand. this is the battle. and it just ended. >> they won't do it again? >> i think certainly if they do, they do it at their own peril. >> how about, stephanie, the point being -- and obviously the president has bigger fights to fight, particularly the one coming up over the next couple of weeks. the one criticism from his base,

from the first term, was he wasn't strong enough. he didn't smack these guys back. and here he's coming with this incredible gust of wind at his back coming off an election that he won in a much more commanding way than anybody thought. and kind of people were almost rooting for him, no, do not give up on this one. i want to see what you'll look like in your second term. how about the people like my parents? i was watching them watch tv. they were disappointed. what are you doing, man? now you got it. why are you backing him up? >> on the particular susan rice issue? >> yes. >> it seems to me that she's the one that made the decision to back off. >> yeah, but his support was a little less vigorous. >> he hadn't made a decision on who he was going to pick as secretary of state. he has two very, very qualified people, susan rice and john kerry, that are reportedly to be the front-runners. he hadn't made his decision. he wholeheartedly defended susan rice. her capability, her knowledge, her record. she was an incredibly important member of the administration. and she's not going anywhere. she's part of the team. >> i'm talking about setting a tone, you know, as a ceo,

setting a tone. even if it was a fight he didn't want to have, take the fight. just a point. >> he said don't go after her, come after me. that's pretty strong. >> i think she ended up in a bad position and is handling it so honorably. let's go fiscal cliff now. president obama and speaker boehner met face to face for about an hour last night at the white house in what both sides would only describe as a frank conversation over the fiscal cliff. it came after boehner earlier in the day accused obama of dragging the negotiations out. >> i've been pushing all year for us to address this problem. but here we are at the 11th hour. and the president still isn't serious about dealing with this issue right here. it's this issue. spending. >> if we go over the cliff, will you permit a vote to decouple that and then fight again on the debt limit? >> ifs, ands and buts are like candy and nuts. if that were the case, every day would be christmas. listen, my goal is to get to -- i know, it's going to be here

real soon. my goal is to get to an agreement with the president of the united states that addresses this problem. >> house minority leader -- >> hold on a second. >> i really want to see this. >> i've just got to say this. i've got to say this. i have been very critical of the president and the president's people for going on campaign trips and not sitting down and talking with john boehner unless the president told him, hey, if it helps you go out and kick me around a little bit, do that. the president didn't give him that, okay, i'm going to check it out, that is every bit as reckless and irresponsible at this stage as i thought the president was going to pennsylvania to campaign before sitting down with boehner. why do you, if you're john boehner and you want to avoid the fiscal cliff, why do you beat up the guy that you're going to be negotiating with later in the day? >> it's kind of awkward. >> how does that help? in fact, i'm going to start e-mailing people, see if the president gave him a pass. that's ridiculous. that's not how you do it if you want to avert the fiscal cliff. maybe the president said, we'll

play good cop/bad cop. >> house minority leader nancy pelosi weighed in on the negotiations, taking one important area of medicare off the table. >> don't even think about raising the medicare age. we are not throwing america's seniors over the cliff to give a tax cut to the wealthiest people in america. we have clarity on that. >> see, now, that doesn't work either. >> that's not clarity. >> i don't think that works. >> you're talking about, by raising taxes on the rich, let's say they raise taxes 39.6%. 39.6%, richard wolffe. >> yes. >> you raise $80 billion a year. >> hey, that's not chump change there. >> okay, but it's not even -- >> you know where i'm going here. that pays for eight days of how the federal government spends their money. medicare and medicaid together, everybody that has a calculator will tell you is what bankrupts the country over the next 20 years if we don't slow down the

massive rate of growth. that's just reckless and irresponsible. >> over the next 20 years. >> that's not a long time. >> no, i'm not saying it's not a long time. i'm saying there's an immediate deficit issue that they have to deal with. and there's a longer-term issue they have to deal with. you could lump them all together now, but right now they can't even come up with a common talking point. >> you've kind of got that backwards, with all due respect. i know you're very angry and upset today. valerie jarrett told me she's never seen you so angry, lost your head. peterson and most of the markets will say it's not the short-term deficits we're worried about, it's the long-term debt. this economy is so massive, we can withstand trillion-dollar deficits for the next few years, but we have got to address -- stephanie, i'm sure you'll agree with me -- we've got to address the long-term debt. >> should that be off the table? >> i think you have to do both. i think peterson and others would agree. i also think they agree you have to address the balance in our tax code. and it's fairly imbalanced now. if you are going to achieve

deficit reduction, this is what the president has said since the beginning of this discussion, at the beginning of the famous debt limit discussion, all three the campaign trail, that we need to reduce our deficit, but we have to do it in a balanced way. and that's essentially what leader pelosi was saying. don't even think about -- >> is that what she was saying? >> that's what she was saying. >> you're good. >> don't even touch medicare if we're going to do this to pay for tax cuts for the rich. >> i think boehner has said, chuck todd, that the rich will be taxed. there's a question how. can you answer the question, chuck, why john boehner went out and criticized the president while these one-on-one negotiations were moving forward? what was the play there? >> but they weren't moving forward, joe. that's the point. you know what last night's meeting was about? trying to figure out how to negotiate. the most absurd part of this week is that these two guys still don't know how to talk to each other. it really is like that horrible relationship book that everybody read 30 years ago, "men are from

mars, women are from venus." obama's from mars, obama's from venus, they don't know how to talk to each other. they don't even know how to negotiate. last night's meeting was as much trying to figure out about how are we going to do the process of this, because we seem to not trust each other. they were insulted by each other's counteroffers. they thought the other side was giving them the proverbial middle finger with their offer, and the white house was totally shellshocked by this, to be hone honest, by the reaction of boehner to their counteroffer because they thought sunday, the first time this week that the two of them met one on one went well. so they thought, okay, they'd move. then boehner would move. then they'd move and boehner would move and there would be this back and forth and it didn't happen that way. these two have to figure out how to talk to each other. i don't know. maybe they need a therapist. >> i was going to say. >> they don't know how to negotiate. >> there are a lot of lawyers

that mediate every day. >> this needs a mediator. >> they really do need a mediator in the middle. >> bring in kenneth feinberg. >> if you go to the other room, i'm going to sit here now and talk. lawyers do it in insurance cases. >> i understand why they do what they do in public, obviously, and it's politics. but when you say they don't know how to talk to each other. >> they don't. >> these are two smart men. i don't understand the concept, as i said, literally whether it is a mediator, what do you mean, they don't know how to talk to each other? there's a billion conversations a day going on between two people who have different opinions. and obviously, this is the high-stakes -- i don't understand what that means. >> it's more of the -- one doesn't -- so you have boehner who doesn't understand why the president won't just help him out of his own box. and you have the president that doesn't understand why boehner won't come and list the entitlement. this is all about -- i mean, to

get into a policy position here a minute, this is all about who's going to actually write the entitlement cuts? the president's going hey, man, not me. i'm not doing it. you want to have medicare and medicaid, you do it. i might sign it. i might agree to it. and boehner's sitting there going, you're going to make me say uncle on tax rates? i'll agree to tax rates, probably. don't make me say it. but boehner's going, i don't want to write these entitlement cuts either. because by the way, they're not very popular in the republican party. i mean, if you want to talk about the fundamental -- the problem here, it's who's going to own the entitlement reform piece of it. >> who's going to own the bad news? >> yes. >> stephanie, by the way, anybody that's worked in congress, worked on the hill, worked on either side of the hill, there is, for the most part, a huge cultural disconnect between republicans and democrats in washington. i was one of the freaks and voted one of the most conservative records, but i always sat with democrats.

i was alone over there. and democrats never came over to talk to republicans. there's, like, a huge cultural divide. >> yeah. i mean, it's not -- it's not the washington that we remembered. >> right. >> where people worked across the aisle. i worked for ten kennedy, and i was always reaching across the aisle. one thing i'll say to address what chuck was talking about, the president has put entitlement reforms on the table. $350 billion worth over the course of the next ten years. it's more than simpson-bowles. so his details, ours, i'm not on the campaign anymore, his details are on the table with some pretty tough decisions on how to reform entitlement, medicare and medicaid. now, boehner wants to take that further. so he has the burden to show where he wants to take it further. he wants to take cuts further. we've already cut $1 trillion out of the budget. he wants to take that further. he has the burden to show where he wants to take it further. so i don't think -- these guys might not know how to talk to each other, but i don't think boehner has any idea how he's going to put something on the

table and bring his caucus along. i think ultimately that's where the problem is. because details have been shared from the president to house republicans. it's now their turn to come back with some details of what they're talking about. >> all right, stephanie cutter, thank you so much. great to have you. >> thanks for having me. >> good to have you back on. chuck, we'll see you on "the daily rundown" right after "morning joe." >> chuck, who do you have on? >> my exit interviews on, retiring senator jeff binghamton on, all these guys have interesting takes on what's wrong with today's senate. why ain't it like the good old days? >> they say always more when they're leaving. >> yes, they do. that's why i love these. finally you get the truth. >> thank you, chuck. david gregory and eugene robinson and here on set, bloomberg's margaret carlson. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. we're at walmart with the simmons family.

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i've done sunday shows many

times in the past. secretary clinton had originally been asked by most of the networks to go on. she had had an incredibly grueling week dealing with the protests around the middle east and north africa that had enveloped our embassy. she had to deal with the loss of our four colleagues in benghazi and console the whole state department, greet the families and the bodies. and she declined to do it. it wasn't what i had planned for that weekend originally, but i don't regret doing that, brian. i think when you're a diplomat and a public official and a tragedy happens and it is related to the work that you do, it's our obligation to try to explain it as best we can to the american people. and that's what i did. >> welcome back to "morning joe." here with us now from washington, the moderator of "meet the press," david gregory along with pulitzer prize-winning columnist eugene

robinson. and here in new york, from bloomberg, marpg rhegaret carls along with donny deutsch and richard wolffe. we were talking with andrea mitchell about the interview on "meet the press" that really, i guess you could argue, led to this moment, although there are other counterarguments that maybe she wasn't as much in the running. having said that, i felt watching that -- i didn't understand why susan rice was chosen to do that interview. and andrea mitchell seemed to back that up saying it wasn't even in her per viurrvie purvie. >> i have a slightly different view. i've had ambassador rice on the program prior to that on national security matters. i mean, she's a key member of the national security team. this is all borne out by what we know about how close she is to president obama and that what an early adviser on foreign policy he was to her. so she's always been in the

room. she's always been a key player. i think in this particular instance, it was a very tricky time. don't forget, there were a lot of questions about whether the administration was soft pedaling what the attack in benghazi actually was. why weren't they calling it a terror attack? was the criticism that was coming from a lot of different quarters. so you're right, secretary clinton declined to come on that morning. it's often difficult to get secretary clinton on the program on "meet the press" or any sunday program. and ambassador rice was available. so i don't think it was unusual that she was there, but it doesn't detract from the fact that she was in a difficult position. her defenders said it again last night. she was very clear to caveat what she was saying about what was not known. if there was a sense that she was putting her thumb on the scale describing this as a spontaneous protest rather than a terror attack, i've talked to people inside the white house who say, look, that's on us. that's on how we decide it as an administration to communicate this, this isn't on her. but in the end, the criticism

that stuck to her that would have made this such a tough process is that she, according to critics, played this as more of a political operative and not just purely as a diplomat. she vigorously pushes back against this, as do others, but that's what really sort of prevailed at the end of the day. and i think what would have made this nomination very long and potentially costly to the white house. >> eugene robinson, just your take, if you could, on the events of the past 24 hours and pain your instinct on what you think really happened. >> well, susan rice went on david's show and on other shows just to recite the talking points that had been given her by the intelligence committee. that's a completely bogus reason, i think, for her to have had all this grief and ultimately to have to withdraw. so i don't blame her in this, really. i wonder why the white house, if president obama really did want

susan rice as secretary of state. i'm not convinced that he had made that decision. you know, why didn't he make the nomination? then she would have had a posse around her. she would have had the weight of the administration around her and i think would have been in a much better position to survive these sort of attacks. and if the president hadn't made up his mind, why didn't he, given the fact that his close adviser for a long time now was in this situation? i think he could have -- he could have or should have done something to avoid this sort of end. >> margaret carlson, i just want your take, first of all, on what's happened but also just touching on the conversation we had before we took to the airwaves in the break about women and being aggressive and how we need to -- and there's a lot of successful women are extremely aggressive, but it was interesting in the days after the "meet the press" interview when her name was coming up as a

potential for secretary of state, everybody described her as so in your face, aggressive as if it was so surprising. >> yeah, sharp elbowed. >> could be that way, it has nothing to do with what happened here. what is your take, and do you think, as i feel, that she was put in a bad position when she went on "meet the press" that day. >> you know, in other fields, as a woman, you can be sharp and aggressive and blunt, as she was described. but you really can't so much in politics. the model is to be more conciliatory. in fact, there's -- >> is that hillary clinton? would we describe hillary clinton that way? >> more than susan rice. i think, yes. >> she's pretty blunt and in your face. >> really? >> hillary? >> yeah. >> i think at the very beginning hillary's problem was that she was blunt and in your face. and that all went away. i don't think she's that way now. at all. but just back to your point, you know, we're not equal until we can be blunt and aggressive and

sharp-elbowed and still get the job. >> it's not pointed out as unusual. >> right. the white house decides in many cases who goes on the talk shows. and hillary clinton is not a talk show person. >> yeah. >> it just seemed -- you know, the reaction was so disproportionate. she's on a talk show. she hasn't been nominated. and mccain and senator lindsey graham decided to make her this cause. >> david? >> yeah, i think -- well, i think that's true, that there's no question that all of the arrows about benghazi got directed toward her when there were questions -- i mean, what are the real questions about benghazi, and i've talked to some of the fiercest republican critics -- it's about the security questions. it's about the u.s. footprint on the ground. it's about how state and the cia coordinated with one another. at the broader level, it's about what kind of projection of american power do we want to have in this new era of foreign policy and national security. these are the big philosophical

questions. not about what the talking points were. and everybody involved in this will concede that. i think where she got caught up in this particular area is as somebody who became prominent in describing this in a way that a lot of people felt was totally soft pedaling what actually happened. the president never answered completely what was going on. he said there's an investigation. we'll wait for that. so there was not, as gene points out, a vigorous defense of susan rice in her particular role while these questions kept mounting. and there's one other element of this. you know, in this town, there's also the role of some personal diplomacy and falling on the sword and whatnot. susan rice went to capitol hill to meet with key senators. and apparently those meetings -- not just apparently, i can tell you, they did not go well. who's to blame for that? i can't say or make a judgment about. but that gambit did not work. when susan collins came out and was another voice even separate from mccain and graham said, look, she appeared to play more of a political role than a diplomatic role, and i've got a

problem with that. that only fueled this further. >> richard. >> margaret, you've known john mccain for a long time, written about him for many years. you know, there's a lot of speculation that maybe he was getting worried about losing his chairmanship on the armed services committee and the many requests he gets for himself to be on the sunday talk shows. why did he do this? >> you know, he has some leftover anger, perhaps, from his own campaign. and did you see him blanch -- i mean, this is a small washington moment, but when john kerry made -- you know, he made the little joke about john kerry, calling him mr. secretary, revealing what he wanted. and kerry says, "thank you, mr. president." and he's ashen. that's still, i think, roils senator mccain. and so this anger kind of spills over. not to diminish talk shows. i mean, this is the most important place in the universe, right? and "meet the press" as well. but she said these things on a talk show. and they became as big as colin

powell before the u.n. or condoleezza rice and the mushroom clouds. i mean, when these figures are testifying. it was such a -- you know, they were looking -- senator mccain was looking for something. >> he didn't run against susan rice in a presidential election. so why take it out on susan rice? >> she's obama's surrogate in this case. >> right. >> david? >> richard, i know the point that you're making -- and again, this is not about the merits -- but mccain and graham and then senator ayotte, i mean, they were looking and are still looking to blame this administration about what happened in benghazi, they do not feel they've been forthcoming. there's huge policy issues with how we went into libya. so i'm not surprised that they went after a surrogate of the president to not only go after those particular points but the broader benghazi approach. i mean, the idea that there's a proxy for the president who, you know, is getting a lot of the blame, i don't know that it's particularly surprising. again, that's not a judgment about the merits of this

particular case. but, i mean, i think that part's not surprising. >> gene, really quickly, a lot of people around the table said she did this completely on her own. there was no nudge from the president, no potential deal going forward. i'm a cynic. i believe there had to be a little nudge here. >> maybe there was a nudge, maybe there was a wink, maybe a shrug of a shoulder, i don't know. but clearly i think she was reading what she perceived to be writing on the wall. and, look, there was the fact that she hadn't yet been nominated. so she keeps looking over her shoulder, and the reinforcements don't come. and so she's just hanging out there. you know, one other interesting thing about this is how the senate tends to protecti its ow and to lovitz own. and the obvious question, i think, that benghazi poses is about security at state department insulations in dangerous parts of the world. and that's a question for hillary clinton. secretary clinton to answer. and it's not being posed in the

same sort of sharp way towards its former member of the senate. for that matter, the senate seems to be terribly eager to confirm one of its own, john kerry, as the next secretary of state. so it really is an exclusive club. >> mika, i also think if the president really wanted to take her out of this state of limbo and double down on her as his pick, even his potential pick, he probably could have come out in the last couple of weeks and really answered a lot of these questions, tried to take some of the heat off of her. i think it had to be clear to her that he was keeping some options open, did not want to be penned in. >> absolutely. >> by them sort of daring him to nominate her. and i think that had to factor into her thinking. >> and hillary clinton was quiet and slow to -- >> right, until last week when she did come out rather notably to defend her. some people think that was too late, but she was there doing that. >> she did say she's my

indispensable partner, but it was a little late and she was hanging out in kind of a limbo. >> it was rough. >> i learned today hillary clinton doesn't have sharp elbows. amazing. >> there are sharp elbows and there are sharp elbows. >> razor elbows. >> she's very sensitive, mika, to elbows. >> you don't even know it's happening to you when hillary clinton's doing it. david, thank you. who do you have on this sunday? >> also, as you know, secretary clinton testifies on benghazi next week, so i'll talk to lindsey graham who led the charge against rice and senator dianne feinstein has been not too happy with the way graham has described some of this with rice. also, who's going to blink in the fiscal cliff. we'll get into that. >> very cool. thanks. eugene robinson, thank you as well. margaret carlson, great to see you here in new york. still ahead, we'll bring in louisiana -- we'll bring some louisiana flavor to new york city this weekend. new orleans mayor mitch landrieu joins us to explain his city's pay-it-forward initiative. helping those still recovering

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still ahead, "fortune" magazine calls her the new queen of wall street. we're going to talk to alexandra how she became a successful entrepreneur despite the financial crisis. up next, the mayor of new orleans, mitch landrieu.

>> he worked with your dad. >> he worked with my dad. was he nice to you? >> that's what i'm saying. your dad was head of hud in the carter administration. >> he was. >> fantastic. >> we're like family. >> great. >> we need to get into this right after the break. >> we'll be right back. have a good night. here you go. you, too. i'm going to dream about that steak. i'm going to dream about that tiramisu. what a night, huh?

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♪ ♪ i want candy ♪ ♪ i want candy ♪ let me tell you something, the mayor of new orleans invites you down, donny, you go. >> i'm in. >> you don't say no. >> we've got the super bowl, we've got jazz fest. >> i'm in. >> here with us now, democratic mayor of new orleans, mitch landrieu. this weekend, new orleanians are bringing some southern hospitality to new york to help hurricane sandy victims. it's really good to have you on the show. >> thank you very much for having me. good morning to you. >> let's explain what we were talking about before, your dad,

famous legendary mayor of new orleans, director of hud. >> how old were you? >> that's a good question. i was 10 when he became mayor. and then i was 18 when he finished. i was up in washington in college when he was there, so it was a great time. a lot of fun. >> we probably went to the easter egg roll together. >> well, we may have been. >> i bet you guys were. so let's talk about it. let's move beyond the very, very small bubble of washington elitism and expand it out a little bit, mr. mayor. you know something about suffering. your people, the people of new orleans know something about surviving the impact of a devastating hurricane. before we talk about sandy, let's talk about new orleans. how are you guys doing? >> we're doing great. katrina, you know, as you know, just upended everybody's lives. we had 500,000 structures damaged, 250,000 people lost their homes. the whole city was flooded for a long time.

>> a lot of people left. >> a lot of people left. it upended everybody's lives. the rest of america came out and said we can't lose the soul of america, and this country dug down deep and helped us a lot. and the people of new orleans always remember that. we have in the past seven years done amazing things. the people of new orleans -- and you'll find the people here are going to be the same way -- they're tough, resilient, not going to give up, and they're going to keep going. and we're rebuilding the city. and we're getting accolades for the work that we've done. we're getting ready to host the super bowl in a couple of months. we've hosted more super bowls than any other place. and the city of new orleans is steaming we ha we have won accolades for the work we have done. the people in new orleans really feel like they want to pay back what happened. i mean, one of the interesting stories is one of the first thing is to help us with the rockaways, folks up here steamed down to new orleans.

so the people of new orleans wanted to say, we understand the agony better than anybody else, but we want to pay back what you have done for us. so we had a concert. we had 800 linemen from our energy company up here and we have had firefighters working for the past couple of months. so we're heading to the rockaways tomorrow with our chefs to help feed people are the rockaways. just to say don't give up, it's going to get better. >> it's really a nightmare what these people are going through, and in new york city, after 9/11, you can go two blocks and it's two different worlds. you go to these places and my husband covers it for new york city, and he's all the out on staten island in new york and it's like the day after. >> the media, the parade passes at some point, but yet the devastation is there, and the

devastation is there for you guys still seven years later. >> what was is there's the big event, then there's the rescue, then there's the immediate after the rescue, and then there's the rebuild. it's shattering the confidence that they had and what life was going to bring them and rebuilding that takes time. here's the wonderful part about it and i think people here probably experienced the same thank we did. in the darkest hours, you find really bright lights of people that do ami mizmazing things an courage that you see in people helps you to keep walking. when you're saying be patient, means have the faith and the courage to know, just hang in there and it will get better. >> one of the pieces of reconstruction, is it's taking a long time for new orleans. and obviously people just want things back to the way they used

to be and it never quite happens that way. so mistakes made for people in this area, what should they do? >> the first thing we learned, we learned it during katrina and we relearned it during isaac is that the nation as a whole is not nearly as resilient as she should be. elect trricity and the energy g in the united states is everything. all three of the governors in this area and the mayors in congress right now talking about relief, they're not just talking about the amount of money that they need, but the mechanism of how to get that money to the ground faster is something we have to get better at. fema is much better than it was after katrina, but getting the money on the ground when it

matters, that's another one. the third thing i would say is that you need to kind of take a minute and step back, is because your first instinct is to grab that which you knew, that's all you want, you want to go back to exact lly like it was. build it back like it always should have been, but not what might have been built because of bad planning. in new orleans, one of the fundamental things that we did, and by the way, it took us a while to get there because people's homes were destroyed and it was hard. but we got into the conversation that we were not going to build new orleans back like she was, as wonderful a city as she was at the time. katrina didn't cause all of our problems, it just brought the problems to light. we decided that we were going to take a step back and build a

city that new orleans always should be. so we're rebuilding to our 300th anniversary in 2018. when it's cold, the poor are colder, and when it's hot, the poor are hotter. and the people who have get back faster than the people who don't. you all watch out people dance around each other and get to a better decision. >> mayor landrieu, thank you so much. >> if you want to come and eat some new orleans food and dance a little bit, come to the rockaways. ♪ [ male announcer ] with free package pickup from the u.s. postal service the holidays are easy. visit usps.com. pay, print, and have it picked up for free before december 20h for delivery in time for the holidays.

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coming up next, president obama's short list for the secretary of state just got a little bit shorter. susan rice withdrew her name for consideration of the cabinet post. we'll have andrea mitchell here to join the conversation and we're going to go behind the details on that decision when "morning joe" returns. but they, get married, have a couple of kids, [ children laughing ] move to the country, and live a long, happy life together where they almost never fight about money. [ dog barks ] because right after they get married, they'll find some retirement people who are paid on salary, not commission. they'll get straightforward guidance and be able to focus on other things, like each other,

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good friday morning, it's 8:00 a.m. on the east coast, 5:00 p.m. on the west coast. taking a live look at new york city. take a look at that. >> unbelievable, we don't deserve it. back with us on set, richard wolfe, dand donnie deutsch. >> president obama knew before he picked up the phone on thursday afternoon, what susan rice the ambassador to the united nations was calling about. she wanted to take herself out of the running for secretary of state and spare him a fight. and that's exactly, mika, what she did. >> brian williams asked her about this and here's a little bit more of her explanation into how this happened.

>> i have done sunday shows many times in the past. secretary clinton had originally been asked by most of the networks to go on. she had had an incredibly grueling week dealing with the protests around the middle east and north africa that had enveloped our embassies. and she declined to do it. it wasn't what i had planned for that weekend originally. but i don't regret doing that, brian, i think when you're a diplomat and a public official and a tragedy happens and it is related to the work that you do, it's our obligation to try to explain it as best we can to the american people and that's what i did. >> did you want the job? >> i would have been very honored to serve in that job, just as i'm delighted to do what i'm doing. but yes, sure, how can you not want to -- in my field, serve at the highest possible level.

>> i tell you what, hillary clinton, i'm sure she was tired. we all get tired. she works around the clock. but she knew what she was doing. hillary, that's the political experience you see in the corporate world you, see in the political world, the pros that have been around the block a few times, they know when to step aside. i have seen this happen in washington time and time again. i saw it on the house level, i saw it at to the white house, you know, friends that worked at the white house, where the white house wants you to do them a favor. go out, and it's the eager ones that jump out front and the smart ones that slowly just go into the background, donnie. and she wanted to help the president. she wanted to help the white house. >> i don't think she could say no. >> yes, actually that's what hillary knows. >> i was talking about susan

rice. >> susan rice could have said no. i'm not criticizing her, because she did what the intel community told her to do. but hillary dodged a bullet on that one. >> when there's impropriety at a big bank, you rarely see the ceo answering questions. i loved her -- we all know we have talked about this ad nauseam, all she did was deliver the information and they shot the messenger, and this is not the last we have heard of susan rice. and now choosing the next secretary of state, it puts the republicans on their heels. >> were you bothered by what went down? >> the whole thing, it was disgusting, but the impropriety, she's been measured for stick g

ing rigidly talking about this. no wonder the cia was all over the talking points. and on top of this, you have what is sadly an effective witch hunt, not to mention an measuring a potential secretary of state on her -- there is a lot of personal animosity. i'm just saying this has been -- this is denying the president what was clearly his top pick, a president who just won re-election and nobody has been able to say susan rice would have been a bad secretary of state. it's come down to talking points on a sunday show. >> she was maybe given a little bit of a disservice by hillary clinton herself by being put out

there to dry? you don't think this is self-inflicted? >> by the administration? i think when you have a major national security event, that has serious questions, i'm not saying there weren't serious questions in the middle of all of this, you have a major national security event, you've got to talk about it on the falk shows. >> do you think this was solely a disgusting take down by the republicans and nothing else? >> i don't think anything about this has been disproportionate. if you want to discuss the security -- you don't go after someone for that performance on the sunday talk shows. >> i think, richard, you use a word that i have been thinking about a good bit, as it relates to susan rice and that's proportionality, she could be criticizeded by going out and

blindly following talking points, which i should just say were approved by the intel community. most republicans would be far more disturbed if she was a cowboy that went out there and said a lot of things that the intel community had told her not to say. but that said, she isn't blameless, but the proportionality is absolutely ridiculous. to judge a woman, and you can judge it in the "new york times" article saying that she is a controversial figure in washington. you can judge her for many things, you can say maybe after the 17th day on the road, maybe she would bristle a little bit, more than what you want your secretary of state to do. we don't know. but if you want to make that argument you could, but to disqualify a woman's life work based on what she said on a sunday talk show when she was following the talking points, not of the obama white house, but of the intel lens community? >> if you're john mccain and

your hawkish on foreign policy, you want a susan rice not a john kerry. john kerry is not your interventionist like susan rice is. if you want to arm rebels in libya or syria, susan rice is your person. >> take us through the evolution a little bit because president obama and the white house were so defiant and they said they were yesterday. how did we get to yesterday? was this all from susan rice? or was there a little nudge from the white house as well? >> well, it's unclear as to whether there was a nudge, but certainly she was reading the tea leafs and it was pretty clear for the last two weeks that the president was not as no, s forceful as he was that day, and the president had his first news conference after being re-elected.

and just came out so strongly, dramatically, emphatically, he was angry and they're still angry in the white house about the way mccain and company they think ganged up on her. i was told that he might knot have stuck with her as long as he did but for mccain, he did not want to appear to be backing down in the face of a challenge from john mccain. this was a really messy episode, and whether or not she was the best nominee, your point, joe, is exactly right i think. the benghazi first of all was not front and center. so she was put out as the highest ranking diplomat to speak that sunday. i think it was a job audition, i think they welcomed the opportunity to have her go out on five shows to show her stuff. she stuck to the talking points. i was on the same show and we were listening and watching and it did seem immediately to those of us watching that it was not

adequately conveying the full complexity, but you understand when someone is going out nervously and sticking to the -- she would have been criticized more if she hadn't. >> again, listen, her argument wasn't credible, i understand why republicans were upset about that performance, four days, five days after they found out from general petraeus that they knew that al qaeda was involved, that it was a terrorist attack. but let's just strip this down and talk about what it was really about, politics. they were upset and you take it to the debate and candy crowley getting it wrong on what the president said and when he said it, the white house was trying to say in the middle of a campaign, we have got al qaeda on the run, this wasn't terrorism, and they were juggling and trying to have it both ways. hey, did the bush administration ever play politics with intel? >> in 2004? >> it's a rhetorical question,

calm down. can we get the oxygen out because when richard wolf is taking everything literally, we're in trouble. i will say, what about colin powell, i will say it again, i have deep, abiding respect for colin powell. he is my type of republican on foreign affairs, he's a realist, he urging restraint. he more than anybody else over the past quarter century, delivered a speech in the most critical of moments in american history and botched it every way he could. we went to war in part because of what he said at the united nations that day and not one republican stood up and said colin powell is unfit to be secretary of state. >> and what colin powell would say today is that you should have seen the stuff that he took out of his speech that people in the cia and the broader

intelligence community wanted him to say. so there are always defenses when you are the front person and you have to deliver that, for him, that's still the blemish on his career. >> and republicans when they go on sunday talk shows and blatantly screwed up or said things that didn't work out the right way, that's not even the issue. andrea, is susan rice the most appropriate person to be speaking on benghazi? >> i think you'll see next week when hillary clinton is now at least scheduled to appear before the senate and the house to explain the benghazi investigation, i think you'll see the questions revert to the state department where they're going have to answer questions about why this was-apart from the actual mission, that second building was a cia outpost and they most likely didn't want to draw a lot of attention to it

locally among the militia by putting a huge amount of security there. and because the republicans took down a woman and a woman of color, that this will continue the narrative during the elegation campaign and hurt them in their attempts to reach out and rebrand. i think there's another effect. i even ran into some very high ranking women from the obama administration at the cabinet level last night and people are upset and this was family, susan rice was one of those loyalists, she had worked dun the campaign and the women in this administration, at least some of them are very upset that he didn't fight harder for her. and some of the republicans might feel that he can be rolled now because he showed weakness in withdrawing a nomination before it was even made. >> president obama stayed rice would remain a close member of his cabinet, we don't know what

yet, maybe national security advisor that doesn't require senate confirmation. >> susan is going to continue to be an outstanding u.s. ambassador to the united nations. i hadn't made a decision about who would be my next secretary of state. there's no doubt that susan was qualified. there are other people that were qualified as well. her interest is in serving me and more importantly the country. >> talk about the next choice, it's interesting to watch the dominos fall down. all these same senate that opens up the senate seat in massachusetts, with scott brown come back, this opens up a whole new series of conversations. >> and you kind of wonder if it's only six weeks after a very, very resounding win in the election, you wonder what the

next four years are, if there was any time he could win a fight and not have to back down and say this is a moral imperative. >> the white house was terrible defending nominees the first time around, he had someone who wasn't yet a nominee. he had no defense. there are a lot of people around susan rice who are very unhappy that there was no concerted communications effort to push back against this until very, very late last week. and by the way, sources tell me there's no wink and a nod about anything, there's a lot of speculation that susan rice will get something else. that's not how this played out. she took herself out, there was no hint that there would be anything else down the road. >> and when we come back, a new u.s. intelligence award says by 2030, the u.s. is not going to be the world's only superpower,

what countries may be stepping up to make a challenge. also ahead, she's been called the new queen of wall street and one of the most powerful people in new york city, willie, maybe she can get us some ballet tickets. seriously, if she is that powerful. alexandra laventhal will be here. and the weekend forecast, let's hope, willie, it's better than that weather pattern that was moving across. >> this is three for three now. it all started as like an anti-bullying campaign for the weather channel online. as far as the weather goes, heading into your weekend, this is a big weekend to get those errands done for the holidays. huge storm, look at the size of that. all that bright white clouds coming off the pacific, new mexico, up into texas. that's a pretty big storm,

dumping rain overnight in areas from yuma, vegas, phoenix, this is the desert southwest. so your weekend forecast, today, just a gorgeous beautiful day on the east coast. perfect for december, clouds will increase during the day, chance of rain late today in areas like oklahoma city, tulsa, dallas. for the weekend on the east coast, clouds will be increasing saturday, you still get a dry day on saturday. the rain should be locate frtd minneapolis to milwaukee, chicago, detroit and cleveland. and also a new storm for the west coast saturday night and then all day sunday. so on sunday for the eastern seaboard, that's your cloudy, rainy day, the middle of the country, your best day of the weekend will be your sunday. so it's not horrible, but it's not perfect either. here's a beautiful shot here of the christmas tree at 30 rock. no snow this week it doesn't look like. you're watching mo ing "morning brewed by starbucks.

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welcome back to "morning joe," it's 23 past the hour. this week the intelligence community released a new report that the united states dominance as the world's lone superpower will end by 2030. what is the implications of this possible power shift and why is it happening? from columbia university, dr.

saks, welcome to the show. >> 2030, that's not very far away. >> and it could be sooner? >> and what are we basing this on? >> this is a good report, and it's global trends picking up the biggest trends in the world right now, one of the big changes of course is that many countries are catching up with the u.s., not all of a sudden, but step by step economically, china being the biggest case of this, turning out millions of engineers, scientists, jumping up in productive and technology and they made some interesting calculations of course, the numbers are, you know, a little bit subject to question, but they're trying to add up the factors that create global power, whether it's the size of the economy, or the amount of research and development

countries are doing, or the level of education of the population or the military. so basically we see that the u.s. that was so dominant 40 years ago, we know that our dominance has been going down relative to other countries is basically going to become one of a few superpowers, but not only the superpower. >> so other countries are catching up. how does that have to do with what we all talk about as the decline we see happening here and how real is it? >> i think what this report rightly stresses is that there are a number of things going on. one is that others are catching up. and the other is that we have got many problems that we're not attending to. >> what is for real? >> one thing that's for sure real is that all of the environmental catastrophes, hurricane sandy and the drought,

and a number of environmental factors. but our relative inability to solve some big problems right now, like infrastructure, like the budget deficit, like investing in education, like investing in science and technology. this is weighing on us and its weighing on us big and if we don't get our act together, it won't just be the catching up of others, it would be the failure of the u.s. to do what we need to do. >> two scary things and i would like you to comment on both. number one. if you look at history, we have every sign of a bloated empire, which suggest this is where we're going. two equally scary, the world works, a country works sometimes when there's a dictator. and all of a sudden when things are of a more even playing field there's anarchy, the world has worked, with one superpower, does the world not become a

scarier place without that overall check and balance so to speak? >> one of the scenarios is that the u.s. and china actually get together to figure out what we're going to do about this megawater and climate, and disease crisis that threatens the whole world. that's the most positive scenario in this intelligence estimate. it's interesting, they're not saying we got to just compete, the scenario that they say is the one that actually solves the most problems is that the major regions, especially the u.s., europe, china, india get together and say, come on, we're all facing these disasters and if we do that, you know, we have a chance because the other major theme of this report they think is absolutely right is, the irony is that we're sitting on the most incredible explosion of great technology that we have already seen in decades, if not a century plus. all the information technology, all the health technology, the

genomics. but to solve our real problems requires kind of thinking ahead, which has not been our strong suit in recent years. >> we haven't strategized as to how to work together. >> exactly. >> we talk a lot here about income disparity in this country, what about the disparity in incomes in terms of the income level t united states compared to other countries, how are we doing on that level in terms of our income? >> well, you know, the u.s. has had growth over the years from two centuries now, 200 years of growing at about 2 percentage points per year, over two centuries that adds up to make us a very rich country. other countries now that lag behind are soaring ahead. so china is the most remarkable growth story in economic history. and this chart shows it. back in 1980, if you can't see

it, but that's all the way at the left-hand side of the graph, the u.s. is on the top 25% of the world economy. and china is 2% of the world economy. and then look at china's soaring rise, because they have been growing at about 10% per year, where we have been growing at about 2% to 3% per year. now those lines cross in this picture, according to the international monetary fund in the year 2017 when the imf predicts that china will be the world's largest economy. the intelligence report says 2022. it doesn't mean that china will be per person than the u.s., fwhaz're four times larger in population, in fact they'll have 1/4 the income per person, but the megasize of the economy says that they'll have such a huge role in international politics

and international trade, changing the whole direction of the u.s. economy, where investments are going, this is a pretty fundamental change, it hasn't happened in the last two century this is way. 12kw4r didn't people say the same thing about japan rising up in the early '90s. a lot of angst in america about japan rising up. maybe china isn't going to be on the same path at all. but america's influence is bigger than just the size of its economy, isn't it? >> no, of course it is. but america is 5% of the world population, it isn't 50% of the world population and when you have these megaeconomic growth rates in other places, it simply means that the u.s. doesn't dominate in the way that many americans came to expect. but we have already seen this now, this has been decades of declining relative influence, but we have to get used to more of this, because the technology key which is the main driver of

economic life is now spread all over the world. >> japan and china, apples and oranges, it's gdp, size of population, size of military, size of economic investment. >> it doesn't mean that china is going to slow down but those pillars are always going to be there. >> an japan went to be a high income company. but china has a lot of catching up to do, and they're determined to do it. that's going to make a huge difference. >> coming up our next guest found a way to thrive on wall street during the financial cris crisis. music is a universal language. but when i was in an accident... i was worried the health care system spoke a language all its own with unitedhealthcare, i got help that fit my life. information on my phone. connection to doctors who get where i'm from.

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i'm jim lebnethal. >> do you know what this country needs? a free municipal bond education skill from lebenthal and someone you can talk to that will treat you like family. because it's crazy to keep throwing money away. >> remember that?

that was jim lebenthal. and according to fortune magazine the new queen of wall street. fortune says this about alexandra, she's now arguably the highest profile woman on wall street and typically a sober suited button up female suited executive on wall street. how would you describe your mode of doing business on wall street? >> i think that i'm passionate, i'm outspoken, i wear my heart on my sleeve which i think is a good thing and i don't like to fade into the background. >> nothing wrong with that. and you don't like to fail, i take it? >> i do not. i don't like hearing the word now. it doesn't filter through my brain. >> did your father teach you that? >> he taught me passion and going out and doing whatever you

wanted and doing it excellently. >> i want to ask you about being a woman in the position that you have and on wall street. but first let's talk about the fiscal cliff. where do you think it should be going? >> i'm as disturbed as anyone else is. >> are you hopeful? >> i'm always hopeful and right now hearing what's in the background does have me worried. and if we do go over the cliff, it has hs him pact for all the municipality. that's going to affect every single nun nmunicipalities. >> who do you think will bear more responsibility if we do go over the cliff? >> i think it will be equal, i'm just struck by how washington seems to be so distanced from what the afternoon person thinks. so i think that they're really discourage.

>> there are a lot of families who are following this, richard, and who find it like they're a speck out in the middle of the universe and what is washington doing to them? >> and they're playing politics. they're all of us positioning, but there will be real impacts on the economies, real impacts on cities an states, they will have their budgets cut. and there's the markets which you know so well. everybody talks about certainty in the market. this president wants certainty out of this, he wants a deal done. should we not hear more from wall street saying, guys, you've got to stop messing around with the debt ceiling and everything out there? >> i know there were a number of high profile wall street executives that came out on tax increases. i think what will happen if we go over the cliff is exactly what happened a year and a half ago when markets tumbled.

we were on the verge of going back to what we had seen in 2009. people don't like the uncertainty. the markets don't like the uncertainty. and when you see the stock market, that erodes welt. >> no matter what side you're on and what you would like to see happen, don't you think that they have to think of something and republicans need to get in in a way that they would not prefer to and obviously the president is trying, but we're not hearing that he's giving enough as well, but at this point, jobs will be affected if they don't? >> yes, i'm obviously someone who you can imagine is in a higher tax bracket and i'm fully prepared to pay higher taxes. i would like to see significant spending cuts. but i'm in to help the country. >> on the cuts, do you think they should come up it together? that that's the hard part to break to the american people?

>> i think so because so many entitlements have been ingrained into us for a long time, whether it's social security or whatnot. but we're so distanced from doing things together so i'm just not -- >> richard, i feel like the republicans have been hung out there a little bit on taxes. and they're looking at ways to give. why wouldn't therein the next tactic be to come out together on real, serious cuts and entitlement age issues and stuff like that. >> i don't know that they have actually committed to the specifics of taxes. they have said, yes, in theory, we want revenues and we think we can get to it through deductions and allowances. it not clear you can in any meaningful way. i think the first step, they haven't a agreed on that first step. and yet, democrats have said yeah, we'll deal with entitlements and they haven't been as specific as they should be u but you've got to get

through the first step, which means everyone has to deal with the first step. the president won that argument, move on already, republicans can get something much bigger on entitlements if they give up something much less on taxes. >> i'm sure they have to hang along with it. >> this is a republican party that the dug itself so deeply into the corner and it still hasn't taken a very clear step out. and until it does, it's very hard to say anything on the other side. we have a 7% of a gop budget deficit and republicans have come up with a half a percent in revenues, maybe, but no change in tax rates and i think what alexandra said is very straight forward, she's right, tax rates have to go up, she's ready to pay for them as many, many people are. and this is sanity at this

point. we have a tiny cohort that's holding the company economically hostage right now and that has to end, then we can start talking about some other things. >> fair enough. alexandra, having grown up in the wall street atmosphere, growing up with especially men-- >> even though i worked with my dad, i was lucky enough to work with my grandmother as well, she worked into her 90s, and she and i went a year working with her when she was 91. so i think i got as much girl power from her than anyone else. and if you're a woman, you're one of the few people in the room, so take advantage of it. so people are going to listen to you. they may be a little bit surprised at first, but take advantage of it. i like standing out in the mode of the way i dress or just

standing up and getting people to listen. >> business for the bell is next on "morning joe." restore revive rejuvenate rebuild rebuild rebuild for their annual football trip. that's double miles you can actually use. tragically, their buddy got sacked by blackouts.

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and earth. guts. glory. ram. ♪ don't know what i'd do ♪ i'd have nothing to prove ♪ i'd have nothing to lose [ male announcer ] zales is the diamond store. take up to an extra 15 percent off storewide, now through sunday. the most absurd part of this week is that these two guys still don't know how to talk to each other. it really is like that horrible relationship book like everybody read years ago, "men are from mars, women are from venus." they don't know how to negotiate. >> we need to bring in a

meeting, 40 past the hour, business before the bell, brian sullivan, you're just back from washington, what's your take on whether the negotiations stand right now? >> nowhere. you know, you have mentioned negotiator and actually there is one and david cody is the ceo of honey well, right, huge company, he's been part of the president's ceo council, but new reports really this week have come out that cody is taking a much more active role between boehner and the president. he's sort of trying to mediate from a business person's perspective between the two because i think that chuck is right, i mean there's a lot of disconnect there on what the two sides want. i did my show from washington earlier this week, we spoke with a number of congress people and they are entrenched and i came away feeling like, at least by the end of this year, that there will be no full deal done. >> no full deal. >> that's just my own take based

on these conversations. >> they're agreeing not to get it done, that's a sign of hope that at least they agree on something. is that what we're going to have all over again? >> the previous discussion that you guys had because i was listening in, there's a proposal that says do the half pass, tax the tax cut for people below $250,000. then work on the tax rates for the top 2%, the entitlement cuts, whatever, i think that's a good idea. just get that out of the way. the analogy i used on my show yesterday is this, if you loan me a dollar, and i pay you back a nickel, i still owe you 95 cents, but if 95% of our discussion is about the nickel and not the 95 cents, that's the analogy of what we're talking about. because everybody knows that the tax cycle on the wealthy, which i have argued for just to get it

auf the table is such a fractional a lot of our problem, but it doesn't make any sense. pass it and it it done, because we have so many bigger problems. the tax cut by the way is already spent multiple times over, the u.s. post office is $15 billion in debt the fah is $2 billion in debt. >> it's the easy part at this point. the question is how then to get the hard part through, which would be legitimate spending cuts, changes to our entitlement programs which make them more solvent. and the only way that happens is to do it together. that they don't lay it on the other. who of the two do you think has the guts to do that? >> i don't think either of them do. i spoke to some of the congressmen about this, either offrecord or offcamera. and i said, guys, it seems clear

that both parties don't want to be the one to tell the american people the truth. when you talk about health care, you're talking about people's lives, their mothers, their children, their grandparents. so they don't want to be -- they don't want to be the one to say we're going to have to cut back on health care for mom. that's why i worry. nobody wants to be the grown up in the room to deliver the bad news. and i'll leave you with this, in 1967, a couple of years after medicare started, it spent $3 billion which is about $20 billion to $25 billion in toda today's dollars, now it's about $100 billion a year. we have $63 trillion with a t, structural deficit for medicare by 2025.

with a t. have a great weekend, everybody. >> take care. up next, the best of late night, we'll be right back. we're at walmart with the simmons family. how much is your current phone bill? four sixteen seventy six a month! okay, come with me -- we're gonna save you money. with straight talk at walmart, you get unlimited talk, text and data for only $45 a month per phone. would we get the same coverage? same coverage on america's best networks. you saved $146.76 by switching to straight talk. awesome! now you can afford

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santa's lap or a flu shot? let's see the full photograph. flu shot. all right. next up.

all right, we have some mixed answers here. let's see. santa's lap. all right, it seems certain that that's a flu shot, let's have a look, yeah, that is a flu shot. all right, there's the face. there's the expression. and we say flu shot? all right, let's take a look, it is a santa. we understand. at usaa, we know military life is different.

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